Somerset Conservation Commission - July 13, 2026

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So we're calling the meeting of the Somerset Conservation Commission to order at 6 o 'clock at the Somerset Town Hall at 140 Wood Street. The meeting will be recorded and shown live on SATB.

First, call to order. Joe Duwa. Renee Driscoll. Joe Castro. Patrick McDonald. Sean Costner. Karen Snegel. So the next order of business is to review and approve minutes of the previous meeting of 6 -29 -28.

To review and approve minutes of the previous meeting of 6 -29 -2026, if ready?

I will have them both in the next meeting. Okay. All right. So the next order of business is a notice of intent.

filed by Kate Sear for a dock located at 394 Main Street, Somerset, Mass. Work being proposed is a 10 -foot by 18 -foot addition above existing patio. A 10 -foot by 18 -foot pervious paver patio. a 12 -foot by 24 -foot pool with 3 -feet pervious A 12 -foot patio. paved apron within a 100 -foot inner riparian, a proposed two 1 -foot diameter pilings, an

8 -foot by 24 -foot float, and to permit an existing 1 -foot by 100 -foot dock and 42 -square -foot float are not previously permitted.

This notice of this hearing appeared on This notice of this hearing appeared in the local newspaper at least five days prior to this hearing. The protocol for this hearing is to hear from the applicant. If anyone who wishes to speak on behalf of the applicant, after which we will hear from anyone who wishes to speak in opposition of the applicant. All questions will be addressed through the chair. Assuming we have a

DEP file and submission information, the hearing will be closed and the order issued. If the applicant is agreed to the order conditions, they have ten days from the date of issuance. conditions they have 10 days from the date of issuance to file an appeal with DEP if any of other citizens of the town are aggrieved of the order they also have a right to appeal with the DEP we recommend you check

with the town clerk regularly to see if the order has been written we'll now hear from the applicant James Hall project manager mom book engineering I have the applicant jack sit here with us so if you don't mind I guess we have two things to discuss. We have this over here, and then the docks all start with the house first. discuss we have this over here The house has an addition

on the back here that Jack, who lives there, wants to add on, just because the children are on the way and wants space for a new kitchen, a new living area. This is actually going to be elevated. He's in a V -Zone, and V -Zone obviously means wave action, so we need to be three feet above that.

First of all, luckily, when you come up from... feet above that so first of all luckily when you come off from main street we're all good we just need to come straight out and beat roughly eight feet in the air so this little addition you see here and then a pervious patio here which would be just pavers and letting obviously stormwater infiltrate and he wants to put a pool in the back

so these three things are the new that's on the ground the DEP actually got one thing Tim was benching Around the DEP actually, one thing Tim was mentioning was talking about, they said like the topography, I mean the topography's all on here so I'm not really sure what they're talking about, but we'll get to the bottom of that. We did call them last week and they haven't

gotten direct to us. Well we haven't got the file number yet so if there's anything in there it'll be in the comments. But I mean I think it's, none of it is, and I think it's just small details, there's no showstopper that they're coming up with that, they say oh this is no good. So that's that part of it. I don't know if the commissioner wishes to discuss that portion of it,

but then I'd like to keep it separate from the DACA so we're not going back and forth. So that's that part.

So, what you're going to be disturbing, well, it's the proposed pervious patio. You're going to be disturbing that. is more today. This is actually sitting on top of the congregation. That is worn today. This is actually sitting on top of the concrete that's there. This is already concrete below it, the addition, so it's really just going to be on here. Sorry, I'm going to stand up

to see. So, this is the addition that's elevated. This is already here. And this is going to be new. This is new, but this is already, this is all concrete underneath it already. It's like a concrete patio. So, he's going to be sort of losing the patio, and then he just actually wants a new patio. in the patio and then he's just obviously on the new patio obviously off the rear

so this will be He's obviously left over here. curvious so this is going to be disrupting the ground that's already there correct that is correct yeah there is lawn right there was going right off the patio yeah so the lawn here and this is one right here that would be all right there's two things as far as stormwater goes we're talking about treatment but when you're on a tightrope really

you don't need to deal with the increase in the flow, so typically when you're on a freshwater river, you need to deal with them for pre -imposed development of it. Here you do not, you do need to deal with the treatment. The pavers infiltrate, so that means it's going right to the ground, and they're usually concrete, they're not asphalt obviously, so. The pool leaper is concrete, usually pitched to the pool,

so this area too, I mean if one hits the pool, it just stays in the pool obviously when it rains. It's obviously an in -ground pool. In -ground pool.

In -ground, yeah. Shallow, though. Shallow? Yeah, like four feet. It's a small pool. You can't get like a 10 -foot bottom or anything like that. So as far as the procedure, how do you deal with excavating it? That is a good question.

going off or yeah he actually accessed so there is an easement between my house and the house north of it 402 well yeah 402 yeah so a mini a mini I mean it's a super small pool a mini excavator could quite easily like one of like the little tiny backyard ribs could very easily like trench out if it had to be hand dug so it also wouldn't be adorable If it

had to be hand -dug, I mean, it also wouldn't be hand -dug. That's wrong.

I grew up doing pools with my father for my early childhood. A pool like that with a mini excavator is dug in a day. So it's a very kind of quick process. Those are typically like kit pools. You dig four feet down, you throw your galvanized or steel walls up, Put the bracing in, they pour cement and put the foot in, do your bottom, liner,

four or five days between the hole to having the liner in on this pool that small. put the bracing in, they pour cement and put the foot in. How are you going to hold the dirt up? I mean, again, a mini like that, I mean, pool that size, you could probably, probably just with a dump truck. How are you going to get the dump truck down here?

The elevation is 12, and the base of the seawall just won't tie it up in four. So there's an eight -foot differential going on there.

It's not like we're sitting down at sea level. So you don't expect to hit water on a high tide? It's not going to... His men and his dad do know how to, usually under the pool, there's going to be deep water. It's going to be dewatered so you don't get, obviously, a buckling of a hole. You deep water so you don't get, obviously, you're buckling. That's what you typically do.

And even as you're excavating it, do you expect that high time? At that depth, honestly, no, because even when you get, I mean, when you get, he's obviously going to talk about the yard a lot better, but when you get halfway up the yard, there's actually some, there's a good amount of depth. So not doing like a true deep end style pool, it's, you know, you're not, it's probably only going to

be. two and a half, three feet down at the end of the, like, on the yard closer to the water. You know what I mean? So, like, here's, the yard looks like this, right? Only elongated across 80 feet or whatever.

So, if the pool is 10 feet off of the house and the end of my yard is down here, where the pool starts and you go down four feet or four and a half feet or something... it's really probably six feet above, you know, high tide because it's, you have another, call it eight feet to drop or six feet to drop before you get to the seawall and then there's a

couple feet below to actually get to where high tide usually is. How do you put a retainer wall around the pool on the back side? To like keep it up? Yeah, keep it up because instead it goes on an angle. Well, there's a pool itself. Like a wall? yeah it would be like a steel frame with like you're at like you just said you're going down Yeah, it would be like a

steel frame with like a... so you said the property goes down like that yeah so the pool is going to be leveled yeah the pool will be leveled for sure so you're going to have some type of wall yeah yeah or whatever is necessary what's your maximum minimum digging depth before you know i know there's going to be a depth of the pool but

you've got to be digging below that right maybe if i mean it's really pretty pretty shallow you know it's like a foot extra because you the vermiculite is thin You know, it's like a foot extra, because the vermiculite is thin, like if you do a vermiculite bottom, it's like a two -inch base, so. where they give you You're trying to disturb as little of the ground as possible, because the more you...

So you're between five and three feet down, then? Yeah, because the more you disturb, then the more you have to kind of recombat, so your goal excavating is to kind of get there and then almost hand finish the hole. So you are going to put a new wall in the back, then? Yeah, if that's necessary. I think that's why I'm glad you brought that up, I think. that's what, I'm glad you

brought that up. I think that's what the DEP's trying to do. Yeah, that's what the top box is. Yeah, because you just said it probably looked on the manual.

That's a good point. Let me, let me, let me. Yeah, please. If we, if we have to amend it, because you're making a valid point, if Jack wants the wall, instead of just, you know, the ground's going like this, the pool's level. Yeah. You get to the, you either grade off or you put a return.

Yeah, you're going to have to put something on there. Yeah, so if he wants retaining wall, we should show us over the commission, those, and if So if he wants retaining what we should show, so the commission knows it, and if you, you know, go to conditions, shows what we want, then we should include it. you, you know. So I would say, let me, we have

not got the call back from the DEP, so I'm sort of... That's going to work for your best interest anyways, because we'll just keep more of the soil on the property. Yeah, yeah, that's fine. I'm not... That's going to be better for you anyways. Yeah. This is your father, Gary. No, I'm Jack, so Gary's my own. Oh, okay, all right. Yeah. So that was Gary my own. Yeah, yeah, so Leo's

my grandfather, and my son. Yeah, yeah, so... I'll say, I'll say, I'll say.

So will you be putting any protection in there so if there's any storm or anything? Yeah, we have the filament is there. It's right here. During construction, though? During construction, yeah.

Are you going to put it?

I would say this too, when people do pools in the areas that, in Swansea, in the areas with Celtic, we do a lot of soil evaluation, my recommendation would be to him, just because we're not going to bring a machine in at this point, but once the excavation starts, I'm a mass soil evaluator, I go out, we check where When I grow, we check where we

can tell in the soils where high water table is. we can tell you. If his bottom of the pool is below the water table, then he knows what to do. We just need to verify that. So I think that's important, especially for the function of the pool. My goal, just from actual maintenance and longevity of the pool and the frame of the structure, is to not

have it be in high water, like in salty soil. That's kind of the recipe for maintenance. So to, I, like I was saying, I think a four foot or four and a half foot bottom or whatever is pretty safe. And that would be a, call it the deep end or whatever, but that's, that's pretty safe from where I've gone out and measured in my yard, you know,

like, okay, I'm call it two feet above the seawall here. So that's kind of the recipe for...

And then there's at high tide, there's another foot and a half or something or three feet before. I get to where the water comes up. Now, there's the storms and all of that jazz, but that wouldn't actually, in a real scope, hurt the pool. There's the seawall, but there's still going to be groundwater there. It's good groundwater.

That's the point you use. Yeah, exactly. Otherwise, you're going to do the sump pumps and stuff, which you can do. I mean, you can plumb in an extra pump under there, but it's not typically not necessary. But it's not, it's typically not necessary.

So my point is what you see... versus what the, you know, groundwater is doing infiltrating at high tide. No, I know. Yeah, I know. It's just, it's not going to rise up, though. Like, if high tide is here, it's, yeah. How does your pace be? Do you have any soap pumps? No, no, I don't believe this.

There's no water in the low pace. Listen, in Somerset, on Maine, you know, it's all sewer, so we never get to go over there and do soil 10 -foot deep holes in soil evaluation. so I'm going to be honest, the knowledge I have over there is, we don't know. So I'm going to be honest. I would recommend we do what's called, you know, redox and modeling for coloring on where high water

is. He's not, the point you make is good because it's not salt water, but salt water is roughly an elevation of 4. The bottom of the pool will be at 8, so we know that when the bottom of the pool is above the ocean, that's not the issue. would be, I'm not familiar in that area because we don't do. septic systems on soil evaluation where ground water is. And if ground water

is at two feet, he should know that because otherwise he's going to get buoyancy and buckling in the bottom. I live on Green Street and my sun pumps come on. Oh yeah? How deep is your basement? Say, if you were to guess, is it four feet, seven feet? Tall in you? It's taller than me. Seven feet? Yeah, 7. So that leaves us in no way. Yeah, seven. You're at the lowest point.

So if you are 7 and it's at 7, then 4 is good. But if you're 7 and your water table is 3 feet on the basement wall, that's a whole different discussion. So that's why it's important. I had this conversation with his father who does pools, and he's like, you know, this is always important. If you go in August, you're not going to see water table. When you go in the spring,

you may have the water table elevated. Water table elevators. Salt water or chlorine?

That's what I call it. Ideally salt water. Yeah, that'd be better off. Nowadays with the modern generators, it's like the big, if you put the nice generators in with the nice cells, you actually make, you save on the chemicals. Yeah, in the long run, right? Yeah, it's when you, the problem is you can't put the cheap cells in. If you put the They're not really like the top tier versions and

it seems like they don't, you know, there actually is a difference. not really the top tier versions in it, Good to know. So if I could just ask the Commission, I mean, you don't know if you have anything in two weeks, because what I'd like to do is if we're going to change the plan for DDP in your comments, then we shouldn't close

tonight, obviously. We should just amend the plan and then try to, but if we come to this meeting, you know, have it ready for you. Well, that was absolutely my question. I don't want to come here with the only person. That was my question, because right now... That's my question because right now I have nothing lined up.

Yeah, the pool's going to last. Yeah, the addition. One conversation at a time. I mean, but if he's pressing, you know. How much can you wait? I mean. I'd like to have a nice example. I mean, you have a timeline to start. Is it the fall? No, it's not going to be this fall, probably, so we're going to be fine. No, it's not going to be this fall probably. So, I mean, I don't, you know,

to drag you guys out for one item, I'd like to get at least somebody else on this agenda. Well, that's what I'm saying, you know, if we put it for two weeks, it's unlikely I'm going to get anybody in. Even if I did, it's going to be a close run with the ad and everything else. Can we do four, Jack? Because we've got to close it up with the DEP anyways. yeah

license on a drawer and by themselves don't need any engineering firm jack did that he came to you guys i don't know what year was that like a year and a half dollars okay so What year was that? A year and a half hours. Okay. So, 15 -year simplified license, single dock, they have thresholds at the DEP, you can't break. so 600 square feet, so much

for the floater. What happened here is he has an all -aluminum dock and the installer on his own puts a 4 -foot dock in instead of a 3 -foot, which then triggers this threshold out of a simplified license and into the typical 30 -year license. On a 30 -year license, you have way more leeway.

You actually can do up to eight boats on a regular dock. Most people, like if they have friends or if they have, you know, like in cases, you know.

So we're trying to accomplish two things. The state said what happens with breaks everything is they call a 10 % rule. If this dock went in, not in compliance with the old dock, and you went more than 10%, went in, not in compliance with the old doc, and you went more than 10%, you trigger that enough, you need to now file a new permit, they're going to capture the 30 -year licensing

fee on the square footage, which Tim was asking, um, uh, Missy at the office that, you know, you'll see we're applying for one foot, but the length of the doc, not four, because he's already paid for the three feet, so we're showing you weapon the second license, which is way more intense and has more leeway and costs more what we're trying to do. is way more intense, and has more leeway, and

it costs. We could have just came in with this.

would be a typical doc. I would have came in with the 30 -year license.

But since he did the 15, that's why we're here. We're trying to just mop up what this guy did. I think, I'll let Jack talk about it because the other thing is he could have litigated it. and said, you put the wrong doc in and you spend $80,000, $100,000 and you're in court. You're on dock end and you spend 80, 100 grand and you're in court, but it's just, so

when I stalked at the VGP, they said, no, you don't need to do that.

It's just... clean it up. Just, you know, make sure you do it the right way all the way through, and that's why we're here. Who put that in, just a little bit? It's fun to be, you know, saying, is it? wine? No, but I'd rather not say the guy's name on TV or whatever. It wasn't anyone who's wine to customers. He criticized every story, walked in

the yard, and, you know, I gave him my plans, which had the 3x100 and this and that, and, you know, I said, if I could go to an 8x25 float at some point I would love to but I don't think so with the square footage and we talked about that and that was that and then across the time of building it he called and said I made your thing four feet it's

better you'll love it and just in the middle of all of it when he gets delivering it and everything's there I'm sitting there and I'm going the the floats different I'm sitting there and I'm going, the float's different from what we talked about, but then also the gangway is the four feet, which, and he says that we couldn't do the float because I would need a new permit, but then when I

do the math on the 6x25 with the 4x100, I need a new permit anyway, so it's like, it turned into a whole kind of catastrophe and, you know, it was probably in the grand scheme of things, In the scheme of things, a lesson learned to kind of put stuff in heavy contracts or whatever, but, you know, we're here and when I talked to, I think it was,

what's his name, the old guy at DEP, was it Carlos? a lesson learned to kind of put stuff in heavy

Oh, Carlos. The former guy. So I talked to Carlos and I was like right at the end and then it switched right to whoever the new person was and they were both super understanding and they said, believe it or not, this type of stuff, this And they were both super understanding and they said, believe it or not, this type of thing happens all the time. The benefit of the

additional permit is if you want more length or anything like that, go for it.

And my parents have been making fun of me, or all of their friends have been making fun of me for not giving my dad a slip. So I would love to have a little bit extra room for his vote. I think the 38 permit is the way to go. I think the 30 -year program is the way to go. Back to the 38 permit. The 30 -year program is

the way to go. Yeah, well, he has no choice. I mean, he would either be cited by you guys, be cited by the DEP, or then he could litigate him as you're pulling all piles, all these plants. Like I said, we could have just came in here. I just came in here not too long ago with docs that are four feet wide. It's the typical length when you need to go

longer. You only put so much square footage. It was unusual to do a three -foot gangway. All of the aluminum builders make four -foot gangways. I did the three -foot gangway because I needed 125 feet at low tide to have the depth. So he had the perfect number. In my math head, I was still sticking to the 15 -year permit trying to save a buck or whatever because we're trying to save a buck here or there.

It turned out that... We're trying to save a buck here or there, and it turned out that, you know, what should have happened was I can't do a three -foot game here nor there, but at the end of the day, once the gangway was there, it is nice to have four feet, but it puts me like, even if it was the six by twenty -five float, I'm like four feet over the

six hundred square feet. So I'm kind of, I was stuck either way. And they're poor and less than Wheeler, but we had someone that wanted five feet. Less than we learned, but we had someone that wanted five feet, and I told them it's not going to happen. So four is the limit on weight, that's all you need.

They wanted five, they wanted five feet, he shot it down. I had to explain it to him, but, um, so anyways, this is, it's a standard dock is what it is now, and he's going to pay the fees to the, for the 30 -year license, whatever the differential is. So I know somebody that did that, that was on aluminum. So the planks on the dock hung over the, uh, So the planks

on the dock hung over the main beams, so they had to sort of cut off the ends of the planks to come into compliance. And they come out measuring, so you really want it right to the plank.

So, two parts to curve at the additional one foot in width, right? And then another proposed float.

And the two one -foot pylons. Yeah, so the pylons would be added.

These two piles are already in, all the floater. So at the end of the new floater only gets the two new piles, so the licensing works by square footage of pile, square footage of dock. Square footage of dark. They do the math and then they give you one. So the square footage of the floats don't count? They do. They do piles separate from fixed and float. The floaters too.

Yeah, the floaters too are 18 by 24. We're seeing more people because they're expensive, right? They're 100 grand, 80, 100 grand now. We're 80, 100 grand now, so we're seeing more people, two people get together, and they do the one docker in the middle, so that makes a lot of sense. So we're seeing more people, two people get together, I think.

So does anybody have any further questions? No. All set.

You need a chapter 91 file number, right? You guys, is it going to be the same number, the chapter 91, or is it going to change because it's going to go to a 30 -year? I'm not going to say it's going to change the license. I'm not going to say it's going to change. So you don't have it yet? yes. He's going to recall it only. He's going to recall it all

in the doc. It's at the registry of these. Right, but as of right now, you don't have that number. No. Okay. How it works is what we have to get from the doc. I understand that, yeah. So can we vote on the doc?

Excuse me? We can vote on the doc. We can vote on a contingent. What we've done in the past, just to save the trouble of having it go through all this again, we can vote on a contingent. And no different chapter 91 comments or no comments. No, no different chapter 91 comments or no comments from DEP once they issue the file number. Now, if they do issue comments, well then

we'll have to come back. However, he's making some amendments to this. I'd like to.

That's not because the doc's not going to be amended though, just the pool is going to be amended, right? Well, it's all under one filing. I think we should just call it in four weeks, continue it. Yeah, pretty good. I don't see a problem. Does the commission come in and sign orders without a meeting or no? and orders without a meeting or no well generally we have to

have a hearing okay so either way i mean we're going to be here we should be only five minutes yeah so it's all the same violence even if you're the only one again i mean no one's complaining about a half hour meeting so i'd rather have it all clean in one meeting done done so let me um let me let's wait for that DEP callback, maybe vacations and stuff, we're not

getting that callback yet. dep call back maybe vacations and stuff we're not getting that call back yet so I would say once we have that and we can clean it up, I'll talk to Tim and tell him exactly what DEP said. We'll probably get that wall. Well, I mean, that's just... I think we'll get the wall in here so we've got that covered. Why, I mean, you know, like you said, the

apron and stuff like that. I mean, you said the property's going on there. I figured you were going to put something around here. Yeah, the pool is kind of one of those things where... It's an extra, you want to get it, so you're getting people. I get it. I get it. I get it. Is there any comments from the public? So I'd like to make a motion to continue this hearing to August, what? August 10th.

And we can do it. We can do it here. So moved. Second.

All in favor? No, I got it. All right, so we'll continue the meeting to August 10th.

Is that us? No. Greg Vance. Tell him 150 compost. Joe. it is.

He's just in my closet. Joe. Oh, I'm sorry. Just tell him I said hi.

I enjoyed working with you. Oh yeah, Leo? Nice man. Yeah. And Yoke. Yeah, he was a legend. Oh yeah, he was. It's funny when you see everyone else in their life. I work for your father, your uncle, or Leo. Thank you, guys. Have a great day. So any new business? Any old business? No. Okay. The old business, we have to sign denial.

A lot on it. Yeah. that's it.

Is there anything else that we have to sign for tonight? No. but I'll take all those plans back, please.

I can ask for that for the next round. Right? Yup. Let me see. Small ones. I can do it. I can do a three. Big page. Is it tight, Bob? Oh, that's it. Well, I think I don't really need you anymore. I love you.

I know the kid's a nice kid, we can clean it back for himself, I don't know if he's looking at it. Oh, I have a fool. I know, I have a fool. Alright, so I'll entertain a motion to adjourn.

Motion moved. May I have a second? Second. All in favor? Aye. Our meeting adjourned at 6.30. Thank you very much.